I honestly don't see the comparison here,
Marmite bringing in finns was a small factor to us sure (as suddenly being blue to the guys giving you ****, leaves a bad taste in your mouth) but Tora's comments about it were the deciding nail in the coffin for us, his own words were about disbanding
P I R A T and said being blue to us(marmite) is a good idea for you, now that we are strong again, how else do you take that?

With P I R A T and Marmite we could sit back and watch or get involved, by Toras own doing we got involved. he can spin it however he likes.

Where as

Most agreements we have with others is to stay out of each others way and help out when and where we can.
I'm not leadership in VMG so don't know if any talks were had between khrom and Raz during the RF timers, But if Devils felt like they were on the brink of disbanding I'm sure i would have heard about it from khrom, I don't think its going to happen over their fort being hit, VMG have killed some citadels in the past and the owning corps/alliances are still intact, and have new structures now.

Your space structures are not really our problem, don't get me wrong. We were more than happy to show up and help out if you asked for assistance, but you said it yourself it's "a Massive punching bag in space" someone was going to punch it at some point, leave it to the russian's to be crazy enough to go for it... but are you saying if it was ever hit by anyone blue to us, we need to remove their blue status over it?

If marmite (or one of your blues) hit a VMG structure would you drop blues with them over it? or remain neutral?
VMG's stance as far as i have always known it for blue vs blue situations is to remain neutral, attempt diplo if one side asked, and not get involved in the drama... unless one side starts **** with us for related or unrelated reasons and forces our hand.

Easy to come to aid when the attackers aren't blue aswell and as far as im aware no help was requested, also why does it have to be repeated? VMG don't get involved in blue on blue, it's really not a hard concept.

To be honest I was shocked to see this thread considering we didn't take sides in this fight, it was a no win situition for VMG, damned if we do damned if we dont.
My personal opinion I would of backed PIRAT, why? Because they actually still play the game.

Marmite is a completely different situation, Finns only days before were actively disrupting our contracts then Tora decides he wanted them to join. No one would be happy with this.

*Eats popcorn*

You're scared even of your own shadow right?

He's the master manipulator. The type of guy who covers his eyes with his hands when he wants to become invisible :))

Your buddy here Tora does it for you. Now that you are allies :)) uu **** that was supposed to be a secret right?

you are correct a child would have a better grasp on the concepts of honor and integrity then you seem to

I am not running for the papal chair. You play eve because honor guides you right?

You turn your guns off to give your target a chance to escape, you always fight fairly... as I've seen in the video 80 vs 10 :) gtfo with your honor repertoire

This may be a bad idea but I shall wade in to this...discussion; for lack of a better term.

In response to the point raised in the initial post.

I have recently joined VMG and am in no way leadership but I have had the pleasure of inter alliance diplomacy both successfully and as a failure, and where I accept the hurt felt by devils (a group I hold respect and a little old grudge with...You killed my tengu, I'd had that tengu for 4 years :(, that tengu had been just like a tengu to me!) that does not exonerate your post.

Humour aside I take exception to the integrity of VMG being called in to question, be upset with the decision; yes, even feel rejected to a certain extent; yes, but call the integrity in to question...you will not.

You're alliance was in hostility with an entity you knew was blue to us, knowing that we were blue to both parties you still approached us, knowing that in doing so we would be forced to make a choice, a choice that would affect our relationship with one or both parties, you had access to other assistance that was not at the mercy of our situation and yet you contacted us!

Your actions put VMG in a position where there was no right answer, it's like when a couple divorces and each of them asks a mutual friend to support their side in the argument, if you are that third party how do you maintain a relationship with both parties...the only answer is to stay out of the argument because if you do not you will lose one friend or potentially both.

You knew you had other options but you did this to us, this is not our making it is yours and in doing so you soured the relationship, you put us in an untenable position...you, who could have got assistance and knew you had that assistance put us in a vice knowing what it would do to our standings and you have the gall to call our integrity in to question...I think you overstep yourself sir.

We said we would not intervene and we did not...That is integrity, not some rejection filled, bravado fueled, petulant slur on another's character when you made a decision that put this series of events in action.

If you truly held to the tenets you preach about you would never have contacted VMG, you would have gone to those not affiliated or actively blue to each party to get assistance (Which you had access to) and not put your blues in a position of this sort.

Integrity is doing what is right even when nobody is watching, ask yourself the question, could you have handled this situation without putting us in the position you have resulting the destruction of a positive relationship and an insult fueled indictment of our alliance and you will know the answer in your heart...you wronged us; not the other way round, dragged our name through the mud for doing what we said we would do...that is the saddest part of this whole debacle.

RB

GOOD LUCK SURVIVING.

Sometimes it's not that easy. My guess is PIRAT would just say "niet" and do what they want anyways. I don't know how many times in the past I've asked a blue to drop something and they wouldn't. Best thing to do at that point is either drop them as blue or just stay out of it. All of this reminds me of high school drama where one friend has an issue with another and wants you to drop them as a friend over it. Sure, you can screw one friend for another..or you can stay out of it. Either way you play it, one or both sides aren't gonna be happy and there's gonna be drama over it. There's no real good answer to how to deal with it. The best solution imo..stay out of it..the one who remains your friend was probably the better friend to begin with because they'd understand your want to not get involved.

I guess the real question here is why did Devil's put up a big target structure to begin with? IIRC it was policy to NOT place structures in the alliance name that could become a target and point of conflict. Does it surprise you that eventually it caught the eye of someone? Why does it bother you more that PIRAT attacked it than anyone else? I've never been a big fan of PIRAT, but it doesn't surprise me that they would jump on the opportunity tbh.

Just to clarify the comment someone made about Tora being dragged into this. He was dragged into it because the comparison was made between the Devil's/PIRAT issue and the VMG/Marmite issue. This is not all about Tora, it's not all his fault and it was unfair to throw his name into something that is not his issue. There's too much deflection going on here that serves only to compound the situation. I've flown with Tora..I've flown against Tora..there's nothing personal and I'm sure he'd agree that at the end of the day, it's just a game and we'd still sit down to have a pint and laugh about it. The same should go for all of you. It's gotten way too personal and has turned into school yard bickering.

If you want to avoid issues..don't put yourself in the position for it to happen in the first place..rather than expect others to "choose friends" after the fact and then get angry over their decision.

I'm not sure but calling them hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankers may have had something to do with it too.

Can you not be objective? You, and your fellow members are holding VMG to account for the fact that someone else decced you? And made a move on your structure.

Answer me this, when contact was made with VMG; were we asked to provide diplomatic support or military support? Because these are not the same things, neither are the implications of each action.

I will caution you that I already know the answer to this.

No benefit will come from this thread, it will merely feed the denizens and bottom feeders of C&P who will feed off of your pain and passive aggression like the parasitic succubi they are, you may feel wronged...but the slight was not ours.

I am sorry for the position you are in and I understand the base reasons for your unhappiness, but we did not orchestrate or facilitate the actions of PIRAT, we remained impartial until the crap flinging started.

In closing we did what we said we would do by remaining impartial and in doing so you have reacted by insulting us and making ludicrous statements...I believe we have every reason to feel aggrieved.

P.S. If you are part of your alliance leadership my apologies for indicating you may not be, I'm a little rusty on who's who in here.

RB

2300 Yao pleb

Take it or leave it.

Unlike you, I work while I'm at work.
And since you can't seem to be able to choose a ship class, I'll choose for you.
bring a t3c, I'll bring a bc

See you tonight big mouth GÖíGÖíGÖíGÖí